French Compound Words

[O'Donnell Tribunal]

Arc-en-ciel
Chef-d'oeuvre

Are these constructions regarded as a single word in French.


Best Regards

O'Donnell Abu

[gmoreau]

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Arc-en-ciel
Chef-d'oeuvre
Are these constructions regarded as a single word in French.

Yes.
Like porte-avions, pied-de-biche, etc.

[John of Aix]

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Arc-en-ciel
Chef-d'oeuvre
Are these constructions regarded as a single word in French.

Yes and no. They are treated as a single word yes but the plural of
arc-en-ciel is arcS-en ciel, it is the 'arc' that is plural, there
is still only one sky. The same goes for the plural chefS d'oeuvre,
rather than arc-en-cieux and chef d'oeuvres as it would be if it was
really just one word. But these compound words can cause quite a lot
of trouble (and are sometimes quiz questions) when being put into
the plural even for the French, let alone French students.

[JX Bardant]

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Arc-en-ciel
Chef-d'oeuvre
Are these constructions regarded as a single word in French.

Yes... "Arc-en-ciel", "chef-d'oeuvre", "couvre-chef", etc. are independent
entries in the "Petit Robert" (the French reference dictionary)...
But their plural is still formed as if there was no dash inside them, and
those constructs were composed of independent words. For instance :
arc-en-ciel (bow-in-sky) => arcs-en-ciel, bouche-trou (closes hole, bouche
is a verb here) => bouche-trous, porte-fenêtre (door window) =>
portes-fenêtres

If your problem is an exam and you're worried about an imposed number of
words, you can take this kind of constructions as single words.

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Best Regards
O'Donnell Abu

[Johannes Baagoe]

... the "Petit Robert" (the French reference dictionary)...

The "mini-bob" is an excellent dictionary, but I wouldn't call it *the*
reference. The Littré is at least as prestigious, and the Larousse is at
least as popular.

My choice is the Trésor de la langue française (TLF), both because it is
based on arguably he most extensive lexicographical effort in French ever,
and because it is available on-line at no cost: http://atilf.inalf.fr/

[JX Bardant]

Post by Johannes Baagoe

... the "Petit Robert" (the French reference dictionary)...

The "mini-bob" is an excellent dictionary, but I wouldn't call it *the*
reference. The Littré is at least as prestigious,

You are right, but it was published in 1872...

Post by Johannes Baagoe
and the Larousse is at
least as popular.

.. but «la Rouquine» is not as prestigious as «Bob le Nabot»

Post by Johannes Baagoe
My choice is the Trésor de la langue française (TLF), both because it is
based on arguably he most extensive lexicographical effort in French ever,
and because it is available on-line at no cost: http://atilf.inalf.fr/

Yes. But the paper version of this 16 volume dictionary costs 1,500 euros
( http://www.cnrs.fr/Cnrspresse/n96a7.html) which makes it a bit too
expensive for me. (I will just conveniently ignore the fact that the web
site is free...). BTW the web site lacks phonetical information.

There is also the «Dictionnaire de l'académie», but the last complete
edition in 1932, and the current edition didn't go past the letter M yet.

So I still persist in saying that «Short Robbie» is the French, recent,
finished, affordable, not-online, reference dictionary.

Post by Johannes Baagoe
--
Johannes

[Johannes Baagoe]

Post by JX Bardant

Post by Johannes Baagoe
My choice is the Trésor de la langue française (TLF), both because
it is based on arguably he most extensive lexicographical effort in
http://atilf.inalf.fr/

Yes. But the paper version of this 16 volume dictionary costs 1,500
euros ( http://www.cnrs.fr/Cnrspresse/n96a7.html) which makes it a
bit too expensive for me.

The paper version is mainly targeted at libraries, university language
departments, research labs, etc, and if the occasional, wealthy
enthusiast and / or snob buys it as well, so much the better. It was
never meant for the general public; for one, it is *way* too big.

Post by JX Bardant
(I will just conveniently ignore the fact that the web site is
free...)

Yes, well, that was the reason for my post, actually. I wouldn't dream
of seriously recommending that a newsgroup reader with a budding
interest in French should go ahead and *buy* the TLF. The online
version, on the other hand, is really great - there are not that many
online, free, French dictionaries out there, and the TLF is arguably
simply the best French dictionnary ever, so its site really deserves
to be better known.

Post by JX Bardant
BTW the web site lacks phonetical information.

It dos not. To take an example out of the top of my hat, at the entry
"Affûtiau":

Prononc. : [afytjo]. GRÉG. 1923 donne 2 possibilités de prononc. :
a(f)futiau (avec 2 syllabes pour la finale) et -tyo (avec une seule
syllabe y = [j]). Harrap's 1963 transcrit la finale en 2 syllabes :
afytio. Rem. Les dict. du XIXe s. transcrivent tous la finale avec 2
syllabes à l'exception de DG qui donne la prononc. avec yod.

And there is even a button "Prononcer" at the top-left corner of the page
that plays a .wav sound of the word if your browser has the adequate
plugin. What more could one possibly ask for?

My main complaint with the web site is that it uses a session-code
system that prevents one from quoting the full link to a specific
entry. My current URL to the word I'm talking about is
http://atilf.inalf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/affart.exe?19;s=3175227360;?b=0;
but I'll be surprised if it works for you, You will have to go to the
main page and type "affutiau". (Q. Why that w<ord? A. Why not?)

Post by JX Bardant
So I still persist in saying that «Short Robbie» is the French,
recent, finished, affordable, not-online, reference dictionary.

With those five qualifications, I agree, of course. My point was not
to start a flame war, anyway, but to point out that a link to the site
is often an excellent way to direct even a beginner to a fantastic
tool, AKAIK without anything like it in any other language.

[JX Bardant]

Post by Johannes Baagoe
Yes, well, that was the reason for my post, actually. I wouldn't dream
of seriously recommending that a newsgroup reader with a budding
interest in French should go ahead and *buy* the TLF. The online
version, on the other hand, is really great - there are not that many
online, free, French dictionaries out there,

There is the 1935 edition of the Dictionnaire de l'Académie
http://atilf.atilf.fr/academie.htm

... and the current uncompleted edition
http://atilf.atilf.fr/academie9.htm

For scientific and technical words the Canadian "Grand dictionnaire
terminologique" is a real mine :
http://www.granddictionnaire.com/

Post by Johannes Baagoe
and the TLF is arguably
simply the best French dictionnary ever, so its site really deserves
to be better known.

Post by JX Bardant
BTW the web site lacks phonetical information.

It does not. To take an example out of the top of my hat, at the entry

Mea maxima culpa... I was looking for this kind of information at the
beginning of articles, but I realize it was at the end.

Post by Johannes Baagoe

Post by JX Bardant
So I still persist in saying that «Short Robbie» is the French,
recent, finished, affordable, not-online, reference dictionary.

With those five qualifications, I agree, of course.

Great :) I was ready to add : «the name of which starts with an R».

Post by Johannes Baagoe
My point was not
to start a flame war, anyway,

Tskkk,tskkkk.... just talking ;)

Post by Johannes Baagoe
but to point out that a link to the site

Great site, whatever I said.

http://atilf.inalf.fr/

[O'Donnell Tribunal]

Many thanks to all,

The question arose in a discussion where a friend claimed that the
english language has the largest number of words in the world.

In the course of his defense of this incorrect position he claimed
that words similar to the french usages above were not words but
phrases.

Many thanks

O'Donnell

[Montesquiou]

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Many thanks to all,
The question arose in a discussion where a friend claimed that the
english language has the largest number of words in the world.
In the course of his defense of this incorrect position he claimed
that words similar to the french usages above were not words but
phrases.
Many thanks
O'Donnell

O'Donnel,

Ask to him to give an example of something that an English speaker can
say, and a French can't.

A ray is a word, a sun is a word, a sunray is a word.
Le rayon is a word, le soleil is a word, un rayon de soleil is a
sunray.
However you have an entry in Sunray and not in Rayon de Soleil (
include in Rayon)
Reason for wat it is wrongly said that the English has more words than
french Linguage.
If the French had the same rules the English linguage has, the word
would be Rayondesoleil with an entry in the Larousse.

[Dooky Dooky Doo]

I have a compound word. la-crap

Post by Montesquiou

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Many thanks to all,
The question arose in a discussion where a friend claimed that the
english language has the largest number of words in the world.
In the course of his defense of this incorrect position he claimed
that words similar to the french usages above were not words but
phrases.
Many thanks
O'Donnell

O'Donnel,
Ask to him to give an example of something that an English speaker can
say, and a French can't.
A ray is a word, a sun is a word, a sunray is a word.
Le rayon is a word, le soleil is a word, un rayon de soleil is a
sunray.
However you have an entry in Sunray and not in Rayon de Soleil (
include in Rayon)
Reason for wat it is wrongly said that the English has more words than
french Linguage.
If the French had the same rules the English linguage has, the word
would be Rayondesoleil with an entry in the Larousse.

[Ann]

Post by Dooky Dooky Doo
I have a compound word. la-crap

Very good. Pass go and head straight for grade 1.

[John of Aix]

Post by Ann

Post by Dooky Dooky Doo
I have a compound word. la-crap

Very good. Pass go and head straight for grade 1.

LOL

[JX Bardant]

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
Many thanks to all,
The question arose in a discussion where a friend claimed that the
english language has the largest number of words in the world.

Maybe he is right...There is no French for the expression «get a life»
for instance ;-)

Post by O'Donnell Tribunal
In the course of his defense of this incorrect position he claimed
that words similar to the french usages above were not words but
phrases.

I can't see how one could possibly use «arc-en-ciel» as a phrase...
The modern french would be «arc-dans-le-ciel». «Chef» means «boss» or
«cook» now, but it means «head» in «chef-d'oeuvre» (as a metaphore of
«top»). Those expressions are learnt as a whole by french speakers.

Anyway I guess there are many more words in the vocabulary of any
language on Earth than what one man is able to remember. It makes this
kind of comparison rather vain.

[O'Donnell Tribunal]

In fact I was told in school that every time says anything he creates a new word.

O'Donnell Abu

Post by JX Bardant
Anyway I guess there are many more words in the vocabulary of any
language on Earth than what one man is able to remember. It makes this
kind of comparison rather vain.

[Johannes Baagoe]

Post by JX Bardant
Anyway I guess there are many more words in the vocabulary of any
language on Earth than what one man is able to remember. It makes
this kind of comparison rather vain.

Employees of the Danube Steamship Navigation Company were, believe it
or not, called "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftsangestellte" (*) in
pre-war Vienna. Finnish is in a way even worse: it has whole sentences
(not merely compound nouns) without any word boundaries. At the other
end, all Chinese words are arguably exactly one syllable long, making
Chinese one of the poorest languages on earth in terms of vocabulary:
there are not that many ways you can make a syllable, even allowing
for tones.

Which shows that the notion of a word is more problematic, and rather
less relevant, than a naive generalization from English or French
would suggest.

(*) I swear I am not making this up, I have even omitted an extra 'f',
making three in a row, that was added in the latest German
spelling reform. A search on "DDSG" in Google will bring up a lot
of information about this very popular company, famous both for
its name like Welsh railway stations, and for its fine services.
Of course, the Viennese were also renowned for their sense of
humor, they still are, actually.

Constructing even longer, artificial compound nouns is a popular
pastime in German schools and among those who like to make fun of
Germans. Mark Twain has some good ones in /The Awful German
Language/ and /A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court/.

[JX Bardant]

Post by Johannes Baagoe
Employees of the Danube Steamship Navigation Company were, believe it
or not, called "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftsangestellte" (*) in
pre-war Vienna.

But this was not the reason for war was it ?

Post by Johannes Baagoe
Finnish is in a way even worse: it has whole sentences
(not merely compound nouns) without any word boundaries.

Turkish isn't bad either... «Çekoslovakyalilastirilamamislarimizdanmisiniz
?» means : «Are you one of those of us who couldn't be made Czechoslovak ?»

Post by Johannes Baagoe
At the other
end, all Chinese words are arguably exactly one syllable long, aking
there are not that many ways you can make a syllable, even allowing
for tones.

Just like words George Bush is using... «You have to be with us or you will
be a foe»

Post by Johannes Baagoe
Which shows that the notion of a word is more problematic, and rather
less relevant, than a naive generalization from English or French
would suggest.