Discussion:
your thoughts on the muslim scarf controversy in france?
(too old to reply)
catch of the day
2004-02-18 07:26:18 UTC
Permalink
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html

i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.

if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?

i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?

i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising. if the current population of arabs could be
contained, it might not be much of an issue. but if in the next
several decades, arabs will make up a huge minority, then it's
important to make arabs adopt the french way because if they don't,
france will have a huge population of arabs living with anti-french,
anti-western values of male chauvanism, religious intolerance, etc.

for pragmatic reasons, i support the french government. also, i think
the scarf, by its size and visibility, is a far more brazen symbol of
religiosity than something as ornamental as a crucifix necklace.

but ideally, i think it's wrong for the state to ban such things.
after all, sometimes it's not really about religion but about culture.
i've worn a beezlebub t-shirt not because i believe in beezlebub but
because of my pride in my beezlebub heritage.

i think the solution is to skirt over religious issues and simply have
school dress codes where certain things are forbidden, period. for
example, if some frenchman of nordic ancestry wants to wear a horned
helmet to class in honor of odin and to celebrate his heritage, he
wouldn't be able to because the dress code says 'no horned
headpieces'. so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
Derek Janssen
2004-02-18 10:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
(So why have s.c.j. and r.a.books already scraped him off?)

Derek Janssen (oh, tsk, tsk, Gaza--Headline-pimping AND
soc.french??...Not feeling as up to it as we used to be, are we?)
***@rcn.com
Tilly
2004-02-18 10:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all religions,it
doesn't just pick on Muslims.

Tilly.

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Norma
2004-02-18 14:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
We are who we are afterall. Head scarves are often worn to the beach or out
in the rain--does wearing something really disturb others so much. It is
the other things that have been abused (behaviors) that are the cause for
concern. Clothing and jewelry are just that...something to wear. Norma
Post by Tilly
Tilly.
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Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 16:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
We are who we are afterall. Head scarves are often worn to the beach or out
in the rain--does wearing something really disturb others so much. It is
the other things that have been abused (behaviors) that are the cause for
concern. Clothing and jewelry are just that...something to wear. Norma
I wish it was that simple.

It is not about being "disturbed".
smw
2004-02-18 18:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including
the
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have
been.
Huh? it's the most anti-PC law I ever heard of...
Bill
2004-02-18 19:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including
the
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
A law that forbids religious messages is in keeping with the separation
of church and starte.

A law that forbids people from carrying out practices *required* by
their religion (head scarves, yarmulkes) is a violation of that
separation.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Tilly
The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
A law that forbids religious messages is in keeping with the separation
of church and starte.
A law that forbids people from carrying out practices *required* by
their religion (head scarves, yarmulkes) is a violation of that
separation.
I'm pretty sure France doesn't have that law.

Susan
pat o'beur
2004-02-19 00:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including
the
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
A law that forbids religious messages is in keeping with the separation
of church and starte.
A law that forbids people from carrying out practices *required* by
their religion (head scarves, yarmulkes) is a violation of that
separation.
You don't even know what you're talking about. Before making you ridiculous,
have a little google search on "loi 1905" and you'll learn what it's about.
Meanwhile you should stay silent.
http://www.laicite-republique.org/documents/loi1905/
Oups! sorry ! I'm quite sure you don't speak French... Hu? Too bad. Pretty
hard to speak sociology about a country you don't even understand the
language.
BTW this is not a new story.... historical background:
- 26 Août 1789.
La Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen stipule dans son article
10: Nul ne doit être inquiété pour ses opinions, même religieuses, pourvu
que leur manifestation ne trouble pas l'ordre public établi par la loi.
- La Constitution de l'an III (1793)
stipule dans son article 354: Nul ne peut être empêché d'exercer, en se
conformant aux lois, le culte qu'il a choisi. Nul ne peut être forcé de
contribuer aux dépenses d'un culte. La République n'en salarie aucun. La loi
du 3 Ventôse an III précisait: "La République ne salarie aucun culte. Elle
ne fournit aucun local, ni pour les cérémonies du culte, ni pour le logement
des ministres. Les cérémonies de tout culte sont interdites hors de
l'enceinte choisie pour leur exercice. La loi ne reconnaît aucun ministre du
culte; nul ne peut paraître en public avec les habits ornements ou costumes
affectés à des cérémonies religieuses."
- le 2 Avril 1871.
La Commune de Paris décrète la séparation de l'Etat et des religions. Le
décret est motivé comme suit:
Considérant que le premier des principes de la République Française est la
liberté;
Considérant que la liberté de conscience est la première des libertés;
Considérant que le budget des cultes est contraire au principe, puisqu'il
impose les citoyens contre leur propre foi;
Considérant, en fait, que le clergé a été le complice des crimes de la
monarchie contre la liberté,
Décrète: [...] Suivent quatres articles décrétant, la séparation, la
suppression du budget des cultes, la confiscation des biens écclésiastiques,
l'inventaire des biens à mettre "à la disposition de la Nation".
- 1881: Laïcisation des hopitaux et des cimetières.
- 1882: L'ecole primaire devient gratuite, laïque et obligatoire (loi J.
Ferry).
- 1883: Suppression des aumôneries militaires.
- 1884: Suppression des prières publiques (par exemple à l'ouverture des
sessions des tribunaux).
- 1884: Rétablissement du divorce.
- 1889: Obligation du service militaire pour les séminaristes.
- 1901: Loi sur les associations, prévue pour donner un statut aux
religions.
- 1904: 2500 écoles religieuses sont fermées.
***La Loi de 1905.***
est l'aboutissement d'une série de lois et de décrets qui allaient dans le
sens de la laïcisation de l'Etat
Les Réactions:
1906: Deux encycliques de Pie X condamnent la loi et interdisent aux
catholiques de se constituer en associations cultuelles conformes à la Loi
de 1901 sur les associations.
La République s'est donc imposée en garantissant à chacun le respect des
droits et l'égalité des chances. C'est ainsi qu'elle a pu faire admettre à
un vieux pays catholique qu'il était temps de mettre un terme à l'archaïsme
clérical. Cette laïcité s'est d'autant mieux imposée qu'elle offre à tous le
cadre dans lequel ils pouvent vivre et s'exprimer ensemble. Cette
orientation qui n'est pas récente permet non d'exclure, mais de réunir.
It took the French state more than 1 century to get rid of the Catholic
church and I don't think it's ready to accept any other religion to replace
it or to change anything.
jonah thomas
2004-02-18 19:26:26 UTC
Permalink
smw wrote:

There may be a problem with attributions here, I'm not clear on the
nesting.
Post by smw
Post by Norma
Post by Tilly
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including
the hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
Huh? it's the most anti-PC law I ever heard of...
Many people think of PC as meaning "refusing to let others say or do
anything controversial". To the extent that wearing scarves is a
controversial action, forbidding people to wear them becomes PC by
that meaning.

Of course different people disagree about which ideology we should all
believe that we mustn't allow people to start controversy around. The
most traditional values I've heard described as PC endorsed
multiculturalism, which this definitely is not.
n***@charter.net
2004-02-18 23:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
There may be a problem with attributions here, I'm not clear on the
nesting.
Post by smw
Post by Norma
Post by Tilly
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,includin
g
Post by smw
Post by Norma
Post by Tilly
the hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have
been.
Huh? it's the most anti-PC law I ever heard of...
Many people think of PC as meaning "refusing to let others say or do
anything controversial". To the extent that wearing scarves is a
controversial action, forbidding people to wear them becomes PC by
that meaning.
Of course different people disagree about which ideology we should all
believe that we mustn't allow people to start controversy around. The
most traditional values I've heard described as PC endorsed
multiculturalism, which this definitely is not.
I was referring to the over-reaction that is first given some issues,
and then the usual pull-back when things calm down. It has happened
so often in the US that we just wait and see. But we don't have this
same issue with the dress of any people or groups, unless it is
particular to a certain community--which then is their problem.

As one can see in the media, the dress in the US and most Western
countries is to wear whatever one wants (or doesn't want)--it is
shocking sometimes, but not often anymore. Norma
Daniel Bernard
2004-02-18 17:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all
religions,it
Post by Tilly
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
We are who we are afterall. Head scarves are often worn to the beach or out
in the rain-
When the beaches become government-run institutions akin to schools then
expect to see a ban on headscarfs et al.
Post by Tilly
-does wearing something really disturb others so much.
When it can be used as an excuse for causing instant division and therefore
interrupting the learning environment, then the answer is yes.
Post by Tilly
It is
the other things that have been abused (behaviors) that are the cause for
concern. Clothing and jewelry are just that...something to wear. Norma
You are being naive. Obviously you have not heard of - or are disregarding -
problems like gang colours to throw out a random example. To take another
example - one that is more relevant to this case - are you trying to say
that clothing is so immaterial and unimportant that it bears no religious
significance?
--
with regards,

DB
Mark Jones
2004-02-18 17:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norma
I do believe it is getting as oppressive as most other PC things have been.
We are who we are afterall. Head scarves are often worn to the beach or out
in the rain--does wearing something really disturb others so much. It is
the other things that have been abused (behaviors) that are the cause for
concern. Clothing and jewelry are just that...something to wear.
Personally, I think we should all go nude and that would solve
the problem of religious attire.
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 18:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
Personally, I think we should all go nude and that would solve
the problem of religious attire.
Good gawd man, you'd change your mind if you'd seen me naked.


D.
--
"I always wanted to hang out in Mars bars."
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catch of the day
2004-02-18 18:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
The new law doesn't allow anybody to wear religious symbols,including the
hijab, yarmulke,large crucifixes etc....The ban extends to all religions,it
doesn't just pick on Muslims.
but isn't the idea of covering one's privates a religious idea?
remember original sin and the shame schtick?
after all, some primitive tribes go around naked, unfettered by this
religious notion of sinfulness.

can students attend classes nekkid in france?
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
but isn't the idea of covering one's privates a religious idea?
remember original sin and the shame schtick?
Yes, particularly in Islam. The strange thing is the Koran says absolutely
nothing about women wearing the Hijab.
Post by catch of the day
after all, some primitive tribes go around naked, unfettered by this
religious notion of sinfulness.
True.
Post by catch of the day
can students attend classes nekkid in france?
:-)

tilly

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Norma
2004-02-18 23:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
but isn't the idea of covering one's privates a religious idea?
remember original sin and the shame schtick?
Yes, particularly in Islam. The strange thing is the Koran says absolutely
nothing about women wearing the Hijab.
It is a matter of choice--usually from the husband or males in the family.
Although many women feel "safer" in doing it. I can't say that is true for
non-Muslim women in Saudi (and only there in my experience), the Western
women were targets on a continuous basis. I wrote about it a few years ago,
right after I returned. We were sitting ducks for those leering idiots!!!
Not all of them can be accuses, of course, but it was very common when we
were out and about. It wasn't often that we went out alone. But the ime
came when I did blend enough to do this on occassion. It is the behaviors
that really count there.

It was always a subject being discussed, and many of the Muslim women did
not wear even a colored scarf unless in public. Never do they wear all of
that in their homes. Norma

PS I must say that when traveling in Kingdom, it was easier wearing the
veil as well as the rest.
Post by Tilly
Post by catch of the day
after all, some primitive tribes go around naked, unfettered by this
religious notion of sinfulness.
True.
Post by catch of the day
can students attend classes nekkid in france?
:-)
tilly
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Tilly
2004-02-19 00:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norma
It was always a subject being discussed, and many of the Muslim women
did not wear even a colored scarf unless in public. Never do they
wear all of that in their homes. Norma
I know, they put on their Western clothes and makeup.
The very wealthy spend a fortune on clothes in the design quarters of Paris
and Milan!!


Tilly

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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 11:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.

Susan
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 12:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.
Susan
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french, and most
were born in france. The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of catholics,
protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody should follow the
rules. Now some may go to special schools, well, let them. The schools will
have to follow national rules anyway.

And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems to make
a bid deal of it.
Tilly
2004-02-18 12:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Cyrano de B. wrote:
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.

Tilly

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Daniel Bernard
2004-02-18 12:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.
You will find that the majority of state schools in Britain are affiliated
to a particular religion so wearing religous symbols would naturally be
acceptable.
--
with regards,

DB
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 13:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
The schools will have to follow national
Post by Cyrano de B.
rules anyway.
No they won't . The new law doesn't apply to private religious schools.
I meant in what the school will teach. Even if they teach religion, they
won't be able to brainwash the students into hating the jews for example, of
becoming suicide bombers!
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and religious
jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely different situation.
They're not uniforms then.
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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Tilly
2004-02-18 23:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
I meant in what the school will teach. Even if they teach religion,
they won't be able to brainwash the students into hating the jews for
example, of becoming suicide bombers!
Yes, they will have to follow the French curriculum and if the school
doesn't achieve it can be closed down..
They won't be able to turn religious schools into Madrassas.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
Muslims are allowed to wear the Hijab, Jews can wear Yamulkas and
religious jewellery is permitted in Britain.It is an entirely
different situation.
They're not uniforms then.
No, who said they are?

Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 13:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french, and most
were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.

The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of catholics,
protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody should follow the
rules. Now some may go to special schools, well, let them. The schools will
have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems to make
a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.

Susan
Tilly
2004-02-18 13:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.


Tilly

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Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 13:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
Tilly
--
Exactly, that's what I was going to say. Sometimes it takes a law to impose
something that seems natural a decade or two later. The private religious
schools will ba few, as are the girls who want to wear headscarves although
you only see them on TV. The french girls of arab origin I see in the
streets here all wear what young girls wear.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 17:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they
are
Post by Tilly
told they have to.
Tilly
--
Exactly, that's what I was going to say.
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.

Susan

Sometimes it takes a law to impose
Post by Cyrano de B.
something that seems natural a decade or two later. The private religious
schools will ba few, as are the girls who want to wear headscarves although
you only see them on TV. The french girls of arab origin I see in the
streets here all wear what young girls wear.
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 17:08:09 UTC
Permalink
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.

The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam. Nothing wrong
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France, where
all religions are equal. religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
to wear. Not something to advertise.

The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved somewhere
else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant advertising of that
'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small minority who wanted to wear
the headscarf will keep on wanting to wear it, of that the growing
generations will.

Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now. That's
what's happening.
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim
pupils
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they
are
Post by Tilly
told they have to.
Tilly
--
Exactly, that's what I was going to say.
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
Susan
Sometimes it takes a law to impose
Post by Cyrano de B.
something that seems natural a decade or two later. The private religious
schools will ba few, as are the girls who want to wear headscarves
although
Post by Cyrano de B.
you only see them on TV. The french girls of arab origin I see in the
streets here all wear what young girls wear.
Derek Janssen
2004-02-18 20:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
Oh, well, that's easily explained--

Half of them (like a few on the SCJ) are DELIBERATELY answering
Gaza/"catch"'s troll x-post of the day out of "professional" tradition,
while the other half want to be nice about the first half and still have
their killfiles set to "ville terminale", even though Gaza's pretty much
given up on pretending to be different people with each screenname...

...Yep, these misunderstandings happen, but can be quickly remedied with
responsible killfile upkeep.

Derek Janssen
***@rcn.com
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 18:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam.
It's *like* a lot of things. But what it is is something these girls believe
they must wear. Or their parents believe they must wear.

Nothing wrong
Post by Cyrano de B.
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France, where
all religions are equal.
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."

religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved somewhere
else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant advertising of that
'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small minority who wanted to wear
the headscarf will keep on wanting to wear it, of that the growing
generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be the
case.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now. That's
what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.

Susan
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially
as
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim
pupils
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will
be
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because
they
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
are
Post by Tilly
told they have to.
Tilly
--
Exactly, that's what I was going to say.
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be
fixed.
Post by Tilly
Susan
Sometimes it takes a law to impose
Post by Cyrano de B.
something that seems natural a decade or two later. The private
religious
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
schools will ba few, as are the girls who want to wear headscarves
although
Post by Cyrano de B.
you only see them on TV. The french girls of arab origin I see in the
streets here all wear what young girls wear.
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 18:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam.
It's *like* a lot of things. But what it is is something these girls believe
they must wear. Or their parents believe they must wear.
Nothing wrong
Post by Cyrano de B.
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France, where
all religions are equal.
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."
Except it doesn't.

And the riony, if I may call it that, is that we've seen women who lived for
20 years without wearing the headscarves in their own countries coming to
certain areas in france and being made to wear headscarves or else. Girls
who are spat upon by boys in some neighbourhoods and called "whores" because
they don't wear that garment. Girls who jsut give up and wear them just to
be left alone. One was burnt alive by a boy his age for the same reason.
that's how it is. It should be stopped now.
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
But the law calling it illegal in public schools does.
Post by Susan Cohen
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
But the rule in french schools is to wear nothing on your head. Sorry. Love
it or leave it.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved somewhere
else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant advertising of
that
Post by Cyrano de B.
'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small minority who wanted to
wear
Post by Cyrano de B.
the headscarf will keep on wanting to wear it, of that the growing
generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be the
case.
It wouldn't be fair, I live here. I know better than you.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now. That's
what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
Not immediately. I agree on that.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."
Except it doesn't.
Of course it does.
Post by Cyrano de B.
And the riony, if I may call it that, is that we've seen women who lived for
20 years without wearing the headscarves in their own countries coming to
certain areas in france and being made to wear headscarves or else.
We have? I'd have to have some outside verification of this.

Girls
Post by Cyrano de B.
who are spat upon by boys in some neighbourhoods and called "whores" because
they don't wear that garment. Girls who jsut give up and wear them just to
be left alone. One was burnt alive by a boy his age for the same reason.
that's how it is. It should be stopped now.
& you can't see that the behavior needs to be punished?
What if the boy decided to burn a gir because she dared to go to school?
Are you going to ban all girls from schools?
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
But the law calling it illegal in public schools does.
So you are admitting that it doesn't advertise on its own, it's the law that
*now* makes it an advertisement.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
But the rule in french schools is to wear nothing on your head.
Yes, I know. Completely illogical.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Sorry. Love
it or leave it.
Right - that's my point. The law isn't going to solve anything.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant advertising of
that
Post by Cyrano de B.
'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small minority who wanted to
wear
Post by Cyrano de B.
the headscarf will keep on wanting to wear it, of that the growing
generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be the
case.
It wouldn't be fair, I live here. I know better than you.
You live there, but you don't know what you're dealing with.
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
Not immediately. I agree on that.
If it works in two decades, I'll be surprised.
Unless it's France's aim to make these people move out of France & back to
their original countries.

Susan
Cyrano de B.
2004-02-18 23:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this
scarf."
Post by Cyrano de B.
Except it doesn't.
Of course it does.
NO, IT DOESN'T. The Koran does NOT mandate wearing this scarf. Some
fundamentalist leaders do. Most muslim women don't wear it, except when it's
very very cold. And they're still muslim. Wearing it in the classroom is
very new, and has nothing to do with the real islam.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
And the riony, if I may call it that, is that we've seen women who lived
for
Post by Cyrano de B.
20 years without wearing the headscarves in their own countries coming to
certain areas in france and being made to wear headscarves or else.
We have? I'd have to have some outside verification of this.
I live here. I have. Several times.
Post by Susan Cohen
Girls
Post by Cyrano de B.
who are spat upon by boys in some neighbourhoods and called "whores"
because
Post by Cyrano de B.
they don't wear that garment. Girls who jsut give up and wear them just to
be left alone. One was burnt alive by a boy his age for the same reason.
that's how it is. It should be stopped now.
& you can't see that the behavior needs to be punished?
What if the boy decided to burn a gir because she dared to go to school?
Are you going to ban all girls from schools?
There is a flaw in your logic somewhere!!! Re read what you just said.

He burnt her because she was NOT wearing the scarf, so banning the scarf
means at least at school she won't have to wear it, it won't be her fault,
it will be the law.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
But the law calling it illegal in public schools does.
So you are admitting that it doesn't advertise on its own, it's the law that
*now* makes it an advertisement.
No, it is a kind of advertisement, so it needs advertising against, through
law.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
But the rule in french schools is to wear nothing on your head.
Yes, I know. Completely illogical.
Why? It is a rule about respect and politeness.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Sorry. Love
it or leave it.
Right - that's my point. The law isn't going to solve anything.
For a lot of people it will.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant advertising
of
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
that
Post by Cyrano de B.
'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small minority who wanted to
wear
Post by Cyrano de B.
the headscarf will keep on wanting to wear it, of that the growing
generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be
the
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
case.
It wouldn't be fair, I live here. I know better than you.
You live there, but you don't know what you're dealing with.
Oh yes, I do, I do, you have no idea.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
Not immediately. I agree on that.
If it works in two decades, I'll be surprised.
Prepare to be.
Post by Susan Cohen
Unless it's France's aim to make these people move out of France & back to
their original countries.
Their "original" country is France. Most have never known any other place.
Some scarf wearers are probably going through a phase, like teenagers do and
will. They do it to anger their parents and the educational system. I am not
scared at all.
Post by Susan Cohen
Susan
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam.
It's *like* a lot of things. But what it is is something these girls
believe they must wear. Or their parents believe they must wear.
When I was at high school Susan, Muslim immigrants didn't even question the
strict dress code at school. If they wanted to go there (and they had the
academic ability to get in) they accepted it just as we did-hats, gloves,
ties,gym uniforms etc......just like we did.They wanted to be NZ citizens
and adapted.
Post by Susan Cohen
Nothing wrong
Post by Cyrano de B.
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France,
where all religions are equal.
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."
The fact is Susan they chose to live in France and it means obeying French
laws. The Rabbis have said French law must be obeyed by Jews because they
live there. Muslims are trying to dicatate to the very people that let them
emigrate.They want the country to change for them, rather than to adapt to
France.
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
Ther is nothing about it in the Koran Susan. Not a word.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant
advertising of that 'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small
minority who wanted to wear the headscarf will keep on wanting to
wear it, of that the growing generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be
the case.
It will be Susan, otherwise they will be suspended from school.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
I believe it will. In one generation.

Tilly
***@hotmail.com


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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam.
It's *like* a lot of things. But what it is is something these girls
believe they must wear. Or their parents believe they must wear.
When I was at high school Susan, Muslim immigrants didn't even question the
strict dress code at school. If they wanted to go there (and they had the
academic ability to get in) they accepted it just as we did-hats, gloves,
ties,gym uniforms etc......just like we did.They wanted to be NZ citizens
and adapted.
& the ones who didn't, didn't.
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Nothing wrong
Post by Cyrano de B.
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France,
where all religions are equal.
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."
The fact is Susan they chose to live in France and it means obeying French
laws.
Which could be the other motive behindthe law: "go home!"
Post by Tilly
The Rabbis have said French law must be obeyed by Jews because they
live there.
Oh, I find this hard to believe in *this* instance....
Post by Tilly
Muslims are trying to dicatate to the very people that let them
emigrate.They want the country to change for them, rather than to adapt to
France.
The answer is for France simply to ignore what they want, & punish the
*misbehavior*, rather than punish *everyone* for their misbehavior.

Susan
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
Ther is nothing about it in the Koran Susan. Not a word.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant
advertising of that 'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small
minority who wanted to wear the headscarf will keep on wanting to
wear it, of that the growing generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not be
the case.
It will be Susan, otherwise they will be suspended from school.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
I believe it will. In one generation.
Tilly
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Tilly
2004-02-19 01:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam.
It's *like* a lot of things. But what it is is something these girls
believe they must wear. Or their parents believe they must wear.
When I was at high school Susan, Muslim immigrants didn't even
question the strict dress code at school. If they wanted to go there
(and they had the academic ability to get in) they accepted it just
as we did-hats, gloves, ties,gym uniforms etc......just like we
did.They wanted to be NZ citizens and adapted.
& the ones who didn't, didn't.
They did. They wanted a good education for their daughters, something they
had been unable to have before.
There were no Muslim schools here then, so they had no choice.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Nothing wrong
Post by Cyrano de B.
with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular France,
where all religions are equal.
Wearing a headscarf does *not* say "all religions aren't equal."
All it says is "I belong to a religion that mandates wearing this scarf."
The fact is Susan they chose to live in France and it means obeying
French laws.
Which could be the other motive behindthe law: "go home!"
Actually I don't think so. It is an attempt to get them ata young age to
intergrate and mix with other children, regardless of their race ,colour or
creed.
If they care so much about dress, they have choices, send their children to
private schools (very expensive for large families) or in the worst case
scenario leave.
There has been a lot of problems with integration in France. In the poorer
areas of Paris ,which are predominantly Muslim , girls that aren't dressed
in the Hijab have been dragged off the streets and gang raped.They are
intimidated at school and harrassed to the point some have killed themselves
or been murdered.
By making the difference between children far less obvious, it will help to
solve some serious problems.

Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Tilly
The Rabbis have said French law must be obeyed by Jews because they
live there.
Oh, I find this hard to believe in *this* instance....
Post by Tilly
Muslims are trying to dicatate to the very people that let them
emigrate.They want the country to change for them, rather than to
adapt to France.
The answer is for France simply to ignore what they want, & punish the
*misbehavior*, rather than punish *everyone* for their misbehavior.
Susan
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
religion is a personal, inner thing, not something
Post by Cyrano de B.
to wear. Not something to advertise.
Your calling something an advertisement doesn't make it so.
To women who believe they must wear these scarves, their *hair* is a
personal thing, and shouldn't be "advertised".
Ther is nothing about it in the Koran Susan. Not a word.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant
advertising of that 'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small
minority who wanted to wear the headscarf will keep on wanting to
wear it, of that the growing generations will.
I would very much like to make a wager with you that this will not
be the case.
It will be Susan, otherwise they will be suspended from school.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's what's happening.
But the "act" will not solve the problem.
I believe it will. In one generation.
Tilly
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Tilly
2004-02-18 23:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam. Nothing
wrong with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular
France, where all religions are equal. religion is a personal, inner
thing, not something to wear. Not something to advertise.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant
advertising of that 'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small
minority who wanted to wear the headscarf will keep on wanting to
wear it, of that the growing generations will.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's what's happening.
They are allowed to wear baseball caps to cover the head.
Apparently Muslim girls have been using dress to try to get out of sport and
swimming. All children will now be suitably dressed for sport.

Tilly



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smw
2004-02-18 23:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Tilly wrote:

...>
Post by Tilly
They are allowed to wear baseball caps to cover the head.
Apparently Muslim girls have been using dress to try to get out of sport and
swimming. All children will now be suitably dressed for sport.
Well, the idea of state-enforced sport is so truly abhorrent that I just
made up my mind about this law...
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
...>
Post by Tilly
They are allowed to wear baseball caps to cover the head.
Apparently Muslim girls have been using dress to try to get out of sport and
swimming. All children will now be suitably dressed for sport.
Well, the idea of state-enforced sport is so truly abhorrent that I just
made up my mind about this law...
There's no mandatory physical education in Germany?

Susan
smw
2004-02-19 00:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
Well, the idea of state-enforced sport is so truly abhorrent that I just
made up my mind about this law...
There's no mandatory physical education in Germany?
Hell, I opted out in 10th grade. What a nightmare.
Norma
2004-02-18 23:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Cyrano de B.
A lot of people in this htread don't seem to understand.
The headscarf is like a permanent, mobile advert for Islam. Nothing
wrong with that, after all. But not in a public school of secular
France, where all religions are equal. religion is a personal, inner
thing, not something to wear. Not something to advertise.
The problem will not be fixed with the law, some say. Just moved
somewhere else. Well, for a while, maybe. But without the constant
advertising of that 'tougher" line of islam, I doubt the very small
minority who wanted to wear the headscarf will keep on wanting to
wear it, of that the growing generations will.
Right now, the generally accepted belief is that we should act now.
That's what's happening.
They are allowed to wear baseball caps to cover the head.
Apparently Muslim girls have been using dress to try to get out of sport and
swimming. All children will now be suitably dressed for sport.
Will there be separate times for males and females if they wear shorts, etc.
Even in Israel, my granddaughter has to wear sweat pants/shorts under her
skirt for sports. My daughter-in- law teaches physical firness and does the
same. It doesn't really interfere if the skirt is an A-line style. When
we go swimming in the sea, I look very different than the other females
battling the waves. Norma
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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jonah thomas
2004-02-18 17:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim
pupils experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will
be reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they
are told they have to.
Exactly, that's what I was going to say.
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
What is the problem that it's supposed to fix?

Is it that they're moslems and they aren't supposed to be?
Daniel Bernard
2004-02-18 18:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
Post by Tilly
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim
pupils experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will
be reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they
are told they have to.
Exactly, that's what I was going to say.
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
What is the problem that it's supposed to fix?

Is it that they're moslems and they aren't supposed to be?

You have to understand that if the law was specifically aimed at Muslims,
then Cohen would be all for it. However, as the law is aimed at all
religious symbolism then she has to oppose it because calling for a specific
exclusion for Jews would just expose her as one of the biggest hypocrites on
Usenet.
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with regards,

DB
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these
conditions; they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
Susan
That may be the case of religious Jewish and Christian children Susan
,because they can often afford to do so.
Muslim immigrants in France are generally from the lower socio-economic
groups. They can't afford to.

Tilly
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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Then you are as naive as she is.
It will not work for any of the problems it's supposed to address.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these
conditions; they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
Susan
That may be the case of religious Jewish and Christian children Susan
,because they can often afford to do so.
Muslim immigrants in France are generally from the lower socio-economic
groups. They can't afford to.
They'll manage the same way the Orthodox Jews do, who have too many children
to be able to afford public school. They'll home-school, &/or pool their
resources & create a school for themselves. You mark my words.

Susan
Norma
2004-02-18 14:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
But, Tilly, few wear full hijab anymore. That includes veil and all of
that. A colorful scarf IF she wants to is OK. Norma
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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Tilly
2004-02-18 23:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norma
But, Tilly, few wear full hijab anymore. That includes veil and all
of that. A colorful scarf IF she wants to is OK. Norma
In France a lot of them do wear the whole thing Norma and they use their
religion to try to wriggle out of some school activities.

Tilly
Post by Norma
Post by Tilly
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jonah thomas
2004-02-18 15:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 15:43:25 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by jonah thomas
Once the Muslim pupils experience the freedom of wearing normal
clothing, many of them will be reluctant to revert to the full
hijab. Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Because that's not *democratic*!

Seriously, there might be a point to school uniforms after all,
if only that all the subgroups could complain they were being
discriminated against equally.
--
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jonah thomas
2004-02-18 15:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.

I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 16:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.
I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
Exactly! You're catching on!


D.
--
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(C) 2004 by `TheDavid^TM' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
catch of the day
2004-02-18 18:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
Many of them wear it because they are told they have to.
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.
I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
all dogs need to be leashed.
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
You know, the business environment in this country would be better for
everybody if we were forbidden to wear neckties.
I don't know anyone who does it because it feels good.
Yes, but a lot of men loosen their ties onc they get to the office.

Tilly

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Tilly
2004-02-18 23:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David O'Bedlam
Seriously, there might be a point to school uniforms after all,
if only that all the subgroups could complain they were being
discriminated against equally.
Yes and it works.
Would you allow gang colours in school if there was complete freedom of
dress?

Tilly

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Patricia Heil
2004-02-18 16:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Ask the French. BTW they also think it's wrong to adopt
into the French language, words from other languages.
They have a cabinet minister responsible for preventing
this dastardly practice.
Post by jonah thomas
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
catch of the day
2004-02-18 18:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
how about a viking horned helmet?
jonah thomas
2004-02-18 19:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
how about a viking horned helmet?
OK, how about it?

I'd certainly draw the line at a head-mounted rocket launcher. Unless
they had a weapon license for it.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
how about a viking horned helmet?
It's historically inaccurate.

Susan
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonah thomas
What exactly is the problem with letting people wear what they want?
A lot of the Muslim girls aren't actually wearing what they want, their
parents force them to wear the Hijab.
There are girls who are pleased with the new law, because it gives them a
reason not to have to wear it.

Tilly

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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 17:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.
No, it will not help at all - it will force the problem underground.

Once the Muslim pupils
Post by Tilly
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
If you think that *any* of them who actually wear these things will show up
to school & suddenly stop hating/attacking the Jewish students, disrupting
classes on the Holocaust, etc., then you are very naive.

These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.

Susan
Post by Tilly
Tilly
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David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 18:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
If you think that *any* of them who actually wear these things will
show up to school & suddenly stop hating/attacking the Jewish students,
disrupting classes on the Holocaust, etc., then you are very naive.
Do you have proof that they do those things? Isn't active Jew-bashing
in France the job of the Aryan skinhead LePenites, anyway?

Now that would be an alliance: LePenites and "dirty sand-niggers."
Post by Susan Cohen
These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.
Where they won't be bothering Jewish kids in school, right?


D.
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Tilly
2004-02-18 23:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
If you think that *any* of them who actually wear these things will
show up to school & suddenly stop hating/attacking the Jewish
students, disrupting classes on the Holocaust, etc., then you are
very naive.
These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.
Susan
No they won't, because they can't afford the fees and the state willnot fund
religious schools.
Private schools don't come cheap.

Tilly

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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
If you think that *any* of them who actually wear these things will
show up to school & suddenly stop hating/attacking the Jewish
students, disrupting classes on the Holocaust, etc., then you are
very naive.
These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.
Susan
No they won't, because they can't afford the fees and the state willnot fund
religious schools.
Private schools don't come cheap.
I've answered this elsewhere.

Susan
catch of the day
2004-02-18 18:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Cyrano de B.
It's not about immigrants and french. Everybody involved is french,
and most were born in france.
That's not what I heard, but, okay.
The point is to say, there is no official religion, and
Post by Cyrano de B.
all religions are equal in france. Hence, securalism. A lot of
catholics, protestants, muslims and jews are for it, so everybody
should follow the rules. Now some may go to special schools, well,
let them. The schools will have to follow national rules anyway.
And after all, most english schools have uniforms, and no one seems
to make a bid deal of it.
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do
is drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
Susan
I disagree with you on this Susan. It will certainly help,especially as
people are of all religions will be treated equally.Once the Muslim pupils
experience the freedom of wearing normal clothing, many of them will be
reluctant to revert to the full hijab.Many of them wear it because they are
told they have to.
i think it's a problem because the muslim numbers keep growing. if
the muslims made up just a small stable minority, it'd be no big
issue. like in america, we have the small amish community which is
male chauvanist and superstitious. and we can tolerate them. but if
the amish community kept on growing bigger and bigger, we'd have to
force them to adopt mainstream ways or otherwise we're gonna have the
talibanization of society along religous tenets.
Vladimir Guez
2004-02-18 19:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
i think it's a problem because the muslim numbers keep growing. if
the muslims made up just a small stable minority, it'd be no big
issue. like in america, we have the small amish community which is
male chauvanist and superstitious. and we can tolerate them. but if
the amish community kept on growing bigger and bigger, we'd have to
force them to adopt mainstream ways or otherwise we're gonna have the
talibanization of society along religous tenets.
Exactly! If the Amish community was larger, and scattered across all
the USA, you'd probably become largely less tolerant of it.

I personally saw them in Pensylvannia some years ago. Yes... very
strange, the feeling to have made a journey in the past.

At last... a non-frenchman that seems to grasp our problem!
smw
2004-02-18 19:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by catch of the day
i think it's a problem because the muslim numbers keep growing. if
the muslims made up just a small stable minority, it'd be no big
issue. like in america, we have the small amish community which is
male chauvanist and superstitious. and we can tolerate them. but if
the amish community kept on growing bigger and bigger, we'd have to
force them to adopt mainstream ways or otherwise we're gonna have the
talibanization of society along religous tenets.
Exactly! If the Amish community was larger, and scattered across all
the USA, you'd probably become largely less tolerant of it.
You are aware of the fact that the president of the US is a born-again
Christian and that the Attorney general had the tits of Justice veiled?
Vladimir Guez
2004-02-18 19:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
You are aware of the fact that the president of the US is a born-again
Christian and that the Attorney general had the tits of Justice veiled?
Well, I don't really see the connection with the Amishes, but... yes, I
know. Bush, the born-again Christian and Ashcroft, the great puritan.

But there's nothing new here; if I remember well, wasn't President
Carter also a born-again christian?

And I've seen that a Magistrate (how do you call that... chief
justice?) in the south was dismissed because he put a sculpture (the
"tables of the law"?) in the entry of the courthouse, and refused to
take it away.

You know, in Europe Religions don't get along well with Politics. As
far as I know, European politicians (France, Belgium, Germany,
Netherlands...) *never* talk about their faith publicly.
smw
2004-02-18 22:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by smw
You are aware of the fact that the president of the US is a born-again
Christian and that the Attorney general had the tits of Justice veiled?
Well, I don't really see the connection with the Amishes, but... yes, I
know. Bush, the born-again Christian and Ashcroft, the great puritan.
But there's nothing new here; if I remember well, wasn't President
Carter also a born-again christian?
I know it's nothing new -- it's just funny that you keep posting these
things in tones of great indignation -- "wouldn't YOU think it's
terrible if there were WOMEN-ONLY hours at the pool?", "wouldn't YOU
think it's terrible if Christian pre-modern nutcases tried to run your
country?" --, when non-secularity is more or less the public norm
hereabouts.
Post by Vladimir Guez
You know, in Europe Religions don't get along well with Politics. As
far as I know, European politicians (France, Belgium, Germany,
Netherlands...) *never* talk about their faith publicly.
Yes, and a good thing, too. I'm German, btw.
jonah thomas
2004-02-18 19:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by catch of the day
i think it's a problem because the muslim numbers keep growing. if
the muslims made up just a small stable minority, it'd be no big
issue. like in america, we have the small amish community which is
male chauvanist and superstitious. and we can tolerate them. but if
the amish community kept on growing bigger and bigger, we'd have to
force them to adopt mainstream ways or otherwise we're gonna have the
talibanization of society along religous tenets.
Exactly! If the Amish community was larger, and scattered across all
the USA, you'd probably become largely less tolerant of it.
They are scattering, it's increasingly hard to get farmland near their
current holdings.
Post by Vladimir Guez
I personally saw them in Pensylvannia some years ago. Yes... very
strange, the feeling to have made a journey in the past.
At last... a non-frenchman that seems to grasp our problem!
But it's different. The amish try to avoid nonamish, and as a
somewhat self-sufficient farming community they do pretty well at
that. They could be a lot larger without causing much trouble.

It isn't an issue that their taxes are low because their cash income
stays low too. And it isn't an issue that they don't join the
military when we don't have a draft. And you can't listen to amish
hate-radio because they don't run radio stations. (I doubt they'd
broadcast stuff about hating nonamish even if they did have radio
stations, but it can't even come up.)

Maybe french society would be easier for everyone if there were more
ghettos. The arabs could have arab ghettos, hasidic jews could have
hasidic ghettos, there could be vietnamese ghettos etc. And the rule
would be, visit somebody else's ghetto and you follow their customs,
leave your ghetto and you leave your customs behind.

It wouldn't work in the long run but it might last a couple hundred
years, better than most things.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by catch of the day
i think it's a problem because the muslim numbers keep growing. if
the muslims made up just a small stable minority, it'd be no big
issue. like in america, we have the small amish community which is
male chauvanist
It is?
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by catch of the day
and superstitious.
If you want to call religion"superstition".

and we can tolerate them. but if
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by catch of the day
the amish community kept on growing bigger and bigger, we'd have to
force them to adopt mainstream ways or otherwise we're gonna have the
talibanization of society along religous tenets.
Nonsense. We have *thousands* of religious sects in America already.
Post by Vladimir Guez
Exactly! If the Amish community was larger, and scattered across all
the USA, you'd probably become largely less tolerant of it.
Why would we? They don't bother anyone.
Post by Vladimir Guez
I personally saw them in Pensylvannia some years ago. Yes... very
strange, the feeling to have made a journey in the past.
At last... a non-frenchman that seems to grasp our problem!
Based on this post alone, your problem seems to be that you don't like
people who are different rather than that you don't like people misbehaving.

Susan
David O'Bedlam
2004-02-18 16:37:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Susan Cohen wrote:
[...]
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools. It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
So the French non-Muslims should kill all the Muslims in France then. Or
at least make them move to Algeria or someplace. After all, we know how
intractable religious behaviors can be. Right, Susan?
--
"I always wanted to hang out in Mars bars."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) 2004 by `TheDavid^TM' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David O'Bedlam
So the French non-Muslims should kill all the Muslims in France then.
Or at least make them move to Algeria or someplace. After all, we
know how intractable religious behaviors can be. Right, Susan?
Don't be ridiculous.Do you think immigrants should adapt to the laws of the
country they emigrate to, or their new country should change to suit them?
People who emigrate know where they are going (unless they are assylum
seekers) and they should be prepared to accept the laws of their home.
Many Muslims in secular France want the state to change to suit their
religious needs.Some are even demanding Shariah law.

Tilly

***@hotmail.com


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Vladimir Guez
2004-02-18 17:39:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
And *what*, in your opinion, will fix this behavioral problem?
Please enlighten us all, as you seem to have first hand experience of
the matter.
Post by Susan Cohen
These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
For the moment, there is *one* muslim school in the extreme north of
France (Lille), and from what I've heard, not very successful.
If the kids' parents, or these young girls don't want to follow the
rules (very unlikely, IMHO) they will, next september, have the choice
between two possibilities: Go to a private catholic school, or study at
home.
--
Sage advice: You should learn to laugh at yourself--others have.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 18:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by Susan Cohen
The point is that the problem is *behavioral*, & all the law will do is
drive the problem out of French schools.
It will NOT *FIX* the problem.
And *what*, in your opinion, will fix this behavioral problem?
Punishing the perps, pf course. Same as any *other* problem.
Post by Vladimir Guez
Please enlighten us all, as you seem to have first hand experience of
the matter.
I hope you are enlightened; I am sorry that it's such a difficult question
for you.
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by Susan Cohen
These kids will all just be enrolled in Muslim schools.
These kids parents will *not* send them to school under these conditions;
they will put them in Muslim schools.
Hence, the problem will be out of French schools, but it will not be fixed.
For the moment, there is *one* muslim school in the extreme north of
France (Lille), and from what I've heard, not very successful.
So now there will be more & they will be more successful.
Post by Vladimir Guez
If the kids' parents, or these young girls don't want to follow the
rules (very unlikely, IMHO)
I'll be waiting here for a report.
Post by Vladimir Guez
they will, next september, have the choice
between two possibilities: Go to a private catholic school, or study at
home.
Why on earth would oneof their choices be a Catholic school?
If they don't go to a Muslim one, they'll study at home.

Susan
Vladimir Guez
2004-02-18 18:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
I hope you are enlightened; I am sorry that it's such a difficult question
for you.
What strucks me is that you have probably no idea of what the everyday
life in France with Muslims looks like. But you patronize us with your
enlightened advices. How presumptive!

A very large majority of the French population back this law... for a
reason. Because we know there's no other way; if we don't act *now*,
the situation will soon get out of control.

Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?

Another exemple, some muslim parents try to obtain "virginity licenses"
from the public autorities for their daughters, in order to get them in
pre-arranged marriages in their homeland.

Can you imagine that in France?
Post by Susan Cohen
Why on earth would oneof their choices be a Catholic school?
Because this law apply only to *public* schools. You'd be surprised to
see the number of muslim boys and girls in private catholic schools.
smw
2004-02-18 18:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
Oh dear. That's standard practice in the US... they also wear swim-suits
to the sauna here. Try something a bit more... eh, shocking?
Vladimir Guez
2004-02-18 19:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
Oh dear. That's standard practice in the US... they also wear swim-suits
to the sauna here. Try something a bit more... eh, shocking?
Well, this kind of thing is *highly unusual* in France. And we're not
ready to acccept it. OK?


Now if you want to talk about culture clash: there's *a lot* of topless
women on European beaches. Inconceivable in the US, isn't it?
smw
2004-02-18 22:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by smw
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
Oh dear. That's standard practice in the US... they also wear swim-suits
to the sauna here. Try something a bit more... eh, shocking?
Well, this kind of thing is *highly unusual* in France. And we're not
ready to acccept it. OK?
Hey, fine with me -- it's just that you're posting to newsgroups mostly
frequented by USians.
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now if you want to talk about culture clash: there's *a lot* of topless
women on European beaches. Inconceivable in the US, isn't it?
Indeed, mostly. I witnessed a beach riot in Miami triggered just by
that. My point, however, is not that the US are reasonable, but that
US-Americans resemble European Muslims much more closely than they know.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now if you want to talk about culture clash: there's *a lot* of topless
women on European beaches. Inconceivable in the US, isn't it?
Indeed, mostly. I witnessed a beach riot in Miami triggered just by
that. My point, however, is not that the US are reasonable, but that
US-Americans resemble European Muslims much more closely than they know.
We've got nudist colonies all over the US & plenty of topless beaches.
If we're going to argue "reasonable", we'll never be done.

Susan
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
Oh dear. That's standard practice in the US...
It is?? Where? No, I am not calling you a liar - I don't swim a whole lot,
so maybe I'm out of the loop.

they also wear swim-suits
Post by smw
to the sauna here.
In public, dual sex steamrooms, yes.
Then again, it's cleaner to do so *anywhere*.

Susan
Post by smw
Try something a bit more... eh, shocking?
smw
2004-02-18 23:16:24 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by smw
they also wear swim-suits
Post by smw
to the sauna here.
In public, dual sex steamrooms, yes.
See, in secular countries, that's frowned upon. It sexualizes the
atmosphere.
Post by smw
Then again, it's cleaner to do so *anywhere*.
Huh? You mean, you wear full body waterproof armor to the sauna, so none
of your body fluids will touch the seats? Or are we talking vaginal
secretions only? How many women get wet in the sauna, anyway? And if
they do, how's a bathing suit gonna help? And what if somebody's bathing
suit is filthy?

Not to mention the icky feeling of sweating in clingy polyester. Urrf.
Yuck.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
...
Post by smw
they also wear swim-suits
Post by smw
to the sauna here.
In public, dual sex steamrooms, yes.
See, in secular countries, that's frowned upon. It sexualizes the
atmosphere.
HUH??
"curiouser & curiouser"!
Post by smw
Post by smw
Then again, it's cleaner to do so *anywhere*.
Huh? You mean, you wear full body waterproof armor to the sauna, so none
of your body fluids will touch the seats?
There's towels for that, no?
Post by smw
Or are we talking vaginal
secretions only? How many women get wet in the sauna, anyway?
Aren't saunas supposed to make you sweat?

And if
Post by smw
they do, how's a bathing suit gonna help? And what if somebody's bathing
suit is filthy?
Not to mention the icky feeling of sweating in clingy polyester. Urrf.
Yuck.
I hate saunas *anyway* so I'm probably not the person to ask.

Susan
smw
2004-02-19 00:20:23 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
Post by Susan Cohen
In public, dual sex steamrooms, yes.
See, in secular countries, that's frowned upon. It sexualizes the
atmosphere.
HUH??
"curiouser & curiouser"!
It's true. In countries where nudity in saunas, steamrooms, and beaches
is the norm, it is understood that there's nothing less sexualized than
the atmosphere in those places. It's with the sexy swimsuits that the
problems start -- the whole _idea_ of a pubic sphere, after all, only
gets introduced by clothes.
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
Post by Susan Cohen
Then again, it's cleaner to do so *anywhere*.
Huh? You mean, you wear full body waterproof armor to the sauna, so none
of your body fluids will touch the seats?
There's towels for that, no?
Well, exactly. So how is it cleaner to wear a suit?
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
Or are we talking vaginal
secretions only? How many women get wet in the sauna, anyway?
Aren't saunas supposed to make you sweat?
I don't think they're supposed to make you come.
Post by Susan Cohen
And if
Post by smw
they do, how's a bathing suit gonna help? And what if somebody's bathing
suit is filthy?
Not to mention the icky feeling of sweating in clingy polyester. Urrf.
Yuck.
I hate saunas *anyway* so I'm probably not the person to ask.
Ah. Well, if you'd been to a sauna-loving country, you'd feel otherwise.
Secluded gardens, five different heats, pools with various temperatures,
cool drinks.... half a day there and you feel brand-new. What I've seen
here would turn me off quickly, too.
Norma
2004-02-18 23:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
Post by Vladimir Guez
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
Oh dear. That's standard practice in the US...
It is?? Where? No, I am not calling you a liar - I don't swim a whole lot,
so maybe I'm out of the loop.
Susan, I do love to swim, and when I first went to Israel there were a few
places where males and females could not swim in the same pool without a
time lapse, and I don't know what kind of cleansing routine. But that is
impractical in the smaller towns. I don't know about in the really Orthodox
neighborhoods in the large cities. Norma
Post by Susan Cohen
they also wear swim-suits
Post by smw
to the sauna here.
In public, dual sex steamrooms, yes.
Then again, it's cleaner to do so *anywhere*.
Susan
Post by smw
Try something a bit more... eh, shocking?
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by Susan Cohen
I hope you are enlightened; I am sorry that it's such a difficult question
for you.
What strucks me is that you have probably no idea of what the everyday
life in France with Muslims looks like. But you patronize us with your
enlightened advices. How presumptive!
I know *exactly* what is going on in the classrooms, & I know how this law
will not work.
We'll see who's "presumptive" when these kids all go to other schhools &
their behavior is *condoned* rather tjhan fixed.
Post by Vladimir Guez
A very large majority of the French population back this law... for a
reason. Because we know there's no other way;
Oh, right. Punishing misdeeds is wrong, attacking peripherals is right.

if we don't act *now*,
Post by Vladimir Guez
the situation will soon get out of control.
Now I have a question for you. In France, some extremist muslims would
like to get some reserved opening hours for women only in the swimming
pools. No men allowed! Do you agree with this kind of request?
This is not a correct analogy. But I will answer it.
Since this would infringe on others right, like the misbehavior of their
children in schools, no.
But in order to be analagous, it would be like saying "Group A is spitting
at people who wear bikinis & Speedos, so *everyone* must now wear bikinis &
Speedos." This not only doesn't stop the spitting mentality, it drives Group
A to their own private pools, & penalizes anyone *else* who doesn't want to
wear bikinis & Speedos.
Post by Vladimir Guez
Another exemple, some muslim parents try to obtain "virginity licenses"
from the public autorities for their daughters, in order to get them in
pre-arranged marriages in their homeland.
Can you imagine that in France?
I don't see what a virginity *license* is (who needs a license to practice
virginity?) - unless you mean "certificate of virginity" - which would be
from a doctor, no? Yeah, it's insular, but why not? How is France going to
forbis arranged marriages if the girl goes along with it?
Post by Vladimir Guez
Post by Susan Cohen
Why on earth would oneof their choices be a Catholic school?
Because this law apply only to *public* schools. You'd be surprised to
see the number of muslim boys and girls in private catholic schools.
I guess I would be.
& you will now see *much more* of this.
Unless the Catholics declare themselves to be "full up."
Then you'll see Muslim schools.

Susan
smw
2004-02-18 23:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
But in order to be analagous, it would be like saying "Group A is spitting
at people who wear bikinis & Speedos, so *everyone* must now wear bikinis &
Speedos." This not only doesn't stop the spitting mentality, it drives Group
A to their own private pools, & penalizes anyone *else* who doesn't want to
wear bikinis & Speedos.
You're both simplifying the issue painfully. I think Susan's right, and
kids from fundamentalist families will go to religious schools. On the
other hand, religious schools in France do have to prepare students for
the national exams, so there's limits to how insular those can be. On
the other hand, Susan is wrong in thinking that _all_ the kids now
wearing head scarves etc. will go to religious schools. All the kids
who'd rather not and who simply feel coerced not by their parents but by
their _peers_ can breathe a sigh of relief. Good thing, too.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the whole thing, in part because the law
targets girls almost exclusively, and as far as I can see, girls hardly
ever produce their share of the sort of problems that appear to be in
need of being addressed. I also wonder whether for a devout Muslim girl,
going with an uncovered head might be akin to your basic Western girl
going with bare tits. Don't know. Kids are adaptable, of course, but
still, there seems to be a lot of shame and shaming involved here, on
both sides.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 23:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Susan Cohen
But in order to be analagous, it would be like saying "Group A is spitting
at people who wear bikinis & Speedos, so *everyone* must now wear bikinis &
Speedos." This not only doesn't stop the spitting mentality, it drives Group
A to their own private pools, & penalizes anyone *else* who doesn't want to
wear bikinis & Speedos.
You're both simplifying the issue painfully.
Well, I figured I wouldn't go into a whole lot of detail....
Post by smw
I think Susan's right, and
kids from fundamentalist families will go to religious schools. On the
other hand, religious schools in France do have to prepare students for
the national exams, so there's limits to how insular those can be. On
the other hand, Susan is wrong in thinking that _all_ the kids now
wearing head scarves etc. will go to religious schools.
Oh, there just might be some who won't.
But the really problematic kids won't stop being problematic because they
can't dress different.
Post by smw
All the kids
who'd rather not and who simply feel coerced not by their parents but by
their _peers_ can breathe a sigh of relief. Good thing, too.
I'm fairly ambivalent about the whole thing, in part because the law
targets girls almost exclusively, and as far as I can see, girls hardly
ever produce their share of the sort of problems that appear to be in
need of being addressed.
Bingo!! I hadn't expressed this clearly enough, but yes, this is the other
major flaw.

Susan
Post by smw
I also wonder whether for a devout Muslim girl,
going with an uncovered head might be akin to your basic Western girl
going with bare tits. Don't know. Kids are adaptable, of course, but
still, there seems to be a lot of shame and shaming involved here, on
both sides.
smw
2004-02-19 00:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Susan is wrong in thinking that _all_ the kids now
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by smw
wearing head scarves etc. will go to religious schools.
Oh, there just might be some who won't.
But the really problematic kids won't stop being problematic because they
can't dress different.
So what? At least they won't be able to terrorize their classmates
anymore. After all, US parents who want their kids to wear racist
t-shirts to school have to homeschool as well, or form their only
white-supremacist parochial school.
Norma
2004-02-18 23:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Susan Cohen
But in order to be analagous, it would be like saying "Group A is spitting
at people who wear bikinis & Speedos, so *everyone* must now wear bikinis &
Speedos." This not only doesn't stop the spitting mentality, it drives Group
A to their own private pools, & penalizes anyone *else* who doesn't want to
wear bikinis & Speedos.
You're both simplifying the issue painfully. I think Susan's right, and
kids from fundamentalist families will go to religious schools. On the
other hand, religious schools in France do have to prepare students for
the national exams, so there's limits to how insular those can be. On
the other hand, Susan is wrong in thinking that _all_ the kids now
wearing head scarves etc. will go to religious schools. All the kids
who'd rather not and who simply feel coerced not by their parents but by
their _peers_ can breathe a sigh of relief. Good thing, too.
I'm fairly ambivalent about the whole thing, in part because the law
targets girls almost exclusively, and as far as I can see, girls hardly
ever produce their share of the sort of problems that appear to be in
need of being addressed. I also wonder whether for a devout Muslim girl,
going with an uncovered head might be akin to your basic Western girl
going with bare tits. Don't know. Kids are adaptable, of course, but
still, there seems to be a lot of shame and shaming involved here, on
both sides.
It would depend upon their family practices--although it wouldn't be the
same as bare breasted... Norma
Richard
2004-02-18 15:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
Yes, all those will be banned - except religious jewelry worn under
clothing.
IOW, all the Xian stuff is already okay.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
IOW, pseudo Catholic. How nice of them.
Post by catch of the day
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
It is if you want to look at it that way, which isn't the point of the
kippa.
Post by catch of the day
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising.
They are actually just avoiding the problem rather than dealin with it.
The whole point is that they are just making the troublemakers want to go to
special schools - as well as others who, while not troublemakers, aren't
"French" enough for them.
Susan
I like Vlad Tepes way of handling the wearing of religious garb when asked
not to; He had some Moslems visit him. They were expected to remove
their turbins as a sign of respect in Vlad's house. They wouldn't.
So Vlad had them nailed to their heads. They should do that with the retards
who inappropriately wearing ball caps no matter where they are.
-Rich
strixbubo
2004-02-18 17:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising. if the current population of arabs could be
contained, it might not be much of an issue. but if in the next
several decades, arabs will make up a huge minority, then it's
important to make arabs adopt the french way because if they don't,
france will have a huge population of arabs living with anti-french,
anti-western values of male chauvanism, religious intolerance, etc.
for pragmatic reasons, i support the french government. also, i think
the scarf, by its size and visibility, is a far more brazen symbol of
religiosity than something as ornamental as a crucifix necklace.
but ideally, i think it's wrong for the state to ban such things.
after all, sometimes it's not really about religion but about culture.
i've worn a beezlebub t-shirt not because i believe in beezlebub but
because of my pride in my beezlebub heritage.
i think the solution is to skirt over religious issues and simply have
school dress codes where certain things are forbidden, period. for
example, if some frenchman of nordic ancestry wants to wear a horned
helmet to class in honor of odin and to celebrate his heritage, he
wouldn't be able to because the dress code says 'no horned
headpieces'. so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
That is exactly the point. Dress code. And in fact I don't believe that
it is about religion or secularism. It is about allowing school
authorities to maintain peace and order in class despite the fact that
some brainwashed pupils are sent by their "islamist" families to war
against the school curriculum, and beyond it against western values and
the western way of life. An overwhelming majority in the french
Parliament has decided to act because these "scarved" girls cause a lot
of trouble. They refuse to go to gym class, or to the swimming pool.
They refuse to attend classes where evolution or sex or birth control is
discussed. And the "scarf" imposed upon them by their family is a tool,
a rallying emblem which allows to keep them in line. Wearing the scarf
has an ideological, political meaning, it is a flag waved to support a
political agenda, and that has no place in a school teaching children.
Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 18:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by strixbubo
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
if scarves are to be banned for the separation of church and state,
what about crucifix necklaces? what about yarmulkas? what about a
t-shirt that says 'i love jesus' or 'i love beezelbub'?
i think the french government's reasons are really two-fold.
one is cultural. french are very proud of their culture and want
immigrants to adopt the french way.
the other reason is french politics is very egalitarian and the scarf
is seen as a symbol of subjugation of women, so the issue is more
political than religious. but, couldn't the yarmulka also be banned
purely on ideological grounds? if egalitarianism should be the norm
in the school, isn't a jewish guy flaunting his jewishness sending the
message 'i belong to the chosen people and you don't'?
i think the french government is also worried because the tide of
immigration keeps rising. if the current population of arabs could be
contained, it might not be much of an issue. but if in the next
several decades, arabs will make up a huge minority, then it's
important to make arabs adopt the french way because if they don't,
france will have a huge population of arabs living with anti-french,
anti-western values of male chauvanism, religious intolerance, etc.
for pragmatic reasons, i support the french government. also, i think
the scarf, by its size and visibility, is a far more brazen symbol of
religiosity than something as ornamental as a crucifix necklace.
but ideally, i think it's wrong for the state to ban such things.
after all, sometimes it's not really about religion but about culture.
i've worn a beezlebub t-shirt not because i believe in beezlebub but
because of my pride in my beezlebub heritage.
i think the solution is to skirt over religious issues and simply have
school dress codes where certain things are forbidden, period. for
example, if some frenchman of nordic ancestry wants to wear a horned
helmet to class in honor of odin and to celebrate his heritage, he
wouldn't be able to because the dress code says 'no horned
headpieces'. so why not 'no stupid-looking scarves' code?
That is exactly the point. Dress code. And in fact I don't believe that
it is about religion or secularism. It is about allowing school
authorities to maintain peace and order in class despite the fact that
some brainwashed pupils are sent by their "islamist" families to war
against the school curriculum, and beyond it against western values and
the western way of life. An overwhelming majority in the french
Parliament has decided to act because these "scarved" girls cause a lot
of trouble.
No, it's the boys who are the problem.
They interrupt classes on the Holocaust & pick fights with Jewish kids.
Post by strixbubo
They refuse to go to gym class, or to the swimming pool.
They refuse to attend classes where evolution or sex or birth control is
discussed. And the "scarf" imposed upon them by their family is a tool,
a rallying emblem which allows to keep them in line. Wearing the scarf
has an ideological, political meaning, it is a flag waved to support a
political agenda, and that has no place in a school teaching children.
It's not the scarf but the anti-social behavior.
Telling them they can't wear it is only going to cause their parents to put
them in another school, & their brainwashing will be WORSE.

All this law is doing is punishing Jewish kids along with Muslim kids for
stuff the MUSLIM kids are doing.

Susan
M J Carley
2004-02-18 18:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
All this law is doing is punishing Jewish kids along with Muslim kids
for stuff the MUSLIM kids are doing.
Wearing a scarf deserves punishment?
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Susan Cohen
2004-02-18 22:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by M J Carley
Post by Susan Cohen
All this law is doing is punishing Jewish kids along with Muslim kids
for stuff the MUSLIM kids are doing.
Wearing a scarf deserves punishment?
Who said THAT?
If anything, your question *proves* how dumb the French are being about
this.
(& before anyone screams, no, I am not calling YOU dumb!)

Susan
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by M J Carley
Post by Susan Cohen
All this law is doing is punishing Jewish kids along with Muslim kids
for stuff the MUSLIM kids are doing.
Wearing a scarf deserves punishment?
France is secular ie: Religion and state are separate in the Constitution
and it is to be kept that way.. For a start girls will benefit and learn
that if they really want to be successful, they have to adapt to their new
country and have the guts to defy the family and pursue a career, rather
than marrying young and having huge families.It will gave them space to
decide what they want in the long term, instead of being dictated to.

The head scarf distinguishes one group of children according to religion. By
taking away any sign of religious garb in school children will integrate and
relate to each other better.

Tilly.



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jonah thomas
2004-02-18 19:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by strixbubo
That is exactly the point. Dress code. And in fact I don't believe that
it is about religion or secularism. It is about allowing school
authorities to maintain peace and order in class despite the fact that
some brainwashed pupils are sent by their "islamist" families to war
against the school curriculum, and beyond it against western values and
the western way of life. An overwhelming majority in the french
Parliament has decided to act because these "scarved" girls cause a lot
of trouble.
No, it's the boys who are the problem.
They interrupt classes on the Holocaust & pick fights with Jewish kids.
Why are they having Holocaust classes in a nonsectarian school?

When I was in high school my history class spent one day on WWII and
the Holocaust got about 2 minutes. Something like, "The nazis put
people they didn't like into concentration camps and worked them to
death. Jews, gypsies, political opponents, and handicapped. When
they had too many victims and not enough food or work, they just
killed them."

It seemed pretty fair to me, later. They didn't mention the
persecution of the homosexuals, maybe because my school had no mention
of homosexuals by any faculty at any time including sex education.
(Which was done in the gender-segregated health classes that were
appended to the phys ed classes.) Similarly they didn't mention the
forced prostition of women from conquered countries.
Tilly
2004-02-18 23:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
It's not the scarf but the anti-social behavior.
Telling them they can't wear it is only going to cause their parents
to put them in another school, & their brainwashing will be WORSE.
All this law is doing is punishing Jewish kids along with Muslim kids
for stuff the MUSLIM kids are doing.
What a load of rubbish. The Chief Rabbi of France has said that Jews should
conform to the new law. Jewish boys can wear baseball caps instead.
In fact the majority of Jews in France like the new law. It means that dress
will no longer be a rallying point for negative behaviour or targetting.
Children will start interacting with each other as children ,not according
to their religion. IMO within one generation they will get to understand
each other a lot better.

Tilly

Ddo you really think it is an anti-semitic law?
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Paul Ilechko
2004-02-18 23:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Don't feed the troll
John S. Watson
2004-02-19 00:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by catch of the day
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/14/scarves/index.html
i dunno. i think both sides has valid arguments.
Does the muslim religion require women to wear them?

I seem to recalling and seeing somewhere some muslim
women that don't wear them, and say the Koran doesn't
require it.

Or are these different "sects" of the muslim religion?

JW
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